Third LOF post

11/14/2012

Your initial post is due on Friday, and your response to a classmate is due Sunday.

Read the essential question, and write a thoughtful post. You must cite at least one passage from Lord of the Flies to support your thinking about the question. Your post must be at least 100 words.

Use CLAIM, EVIDENCE, ELABORATION!

Your response to a classmate must also be thoughtful. You must respond to at least one other classmate. Your response must be at least 50 words. No citation from the text is necessary for your response.

3. What does it mean to be civilized?

48 Comments

Alvin O. per. 5

11/14/2012 05:20:33 am

CLAIM
To me, I think what being civilized means is for every individual to play their part in community or society in an orderly fashion in order to keep their community in order.
EVIDENCE
Ralph, who is one of the most civilized person within this community, desperately tries to play his role as chief well and keep order among his group of survivors. In order to do so, he would establish rules among his community and assign roles o groups of people that would help support their needs of survival on the island. Ralph strongly believes in these rules and roles that he assigned, so much that he sees them as their only resort, seen on page 91, “Because rules are the only thing we’ve got!”.
ELABORATION
A civilized community is what is needed in order to keep society and humanity to further continue. In order for this to happen though, roles must be played while rules must be applied.

Jacelyn K., Per 6

11/15/2012 10:04:44 pm

I agree with how you define a civilized community. Without it, humanity turns into savagery, as we can now see in Jack. Also, society roles has to be fulfilled and rules enforced. Unfortunately, it seems that Ralph's wanting for humanity is not strong enough to keep everyone in check.

Brandon Yip Period 5

11/18/2012 02:54:02 am

Great job on the quote. It really fits with the "civilized" quote. Jack, the hunters, and the little kids should start following Ralph's orders because if they don't the entire group would turn into turmoil and chaos. The group would no longer be together, they would be running around the island probably hunting each other.

Cally M., Period 5

11/18/2012 10:06:35 am

I agree with your statement about what it means to be civilized. The fact that Ralph tried to organize the boys and establish rules showed that he was civilized. The way he behaved and carried himself, compared to the other boys on the island, reflected a refined manner and a displayed a desire for order.

Andrew L. , Period 5

11/20/2012 02:05:04 pm

This quote enravels the general idea that civility is what is the basis of a well developed society. Without bringing the establishment of order, the society will not cooperate and eventually lead to nothing. Thus, your quote exemplifies the greatness in the justification of the rules among the members of the society on the island. Ralph brings change for that he becomes responsible and desires order among the stranded boys.

Alex D.

12/2/2012 12:28:42 pm

I agree. Everybody should take part in their community and that is what makes them civilized. To be civilized is to do good and be a help to your society, not barbaric and doing a disservice.

Jeffery W., Per 5

12/6/2012 09:15:11 am

I agree with your idea of a civilized society. Ralph tries to help them all in order to be saved, but Jack only wants to hunt instead of being saved, because the majority want meat, they all follow Jack except a few. If they kept on following Jack, it would eventually lead to turmoil.

Andrew L. , Period 5

11/14/2012 11:50:41 am

CLAIM: Being civilized has means of being one with proper manner in and respect for the others that are around them.

EVIDENCE: For example in the novel, Lord of the Flies by William Golding, Ralph brings out his charismatic personality and tries to be civil with the rest of the lost boys on the island. Ralph brings his leadership through his situation with Jack who is always opposing what should be right and conveyed and followed. Ralph, as chief, continues to enforce a control over the boys. One way he exemplifies it, is through, “Jack’s voice sounded in a bitter mimicry. ‘Jack! Jack!’ ‘The rules!’ shouted Ralph. ‘You’re breaking the rules!’ ‘Who cares?’ ‘Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!’”(91).

ELABORATION: Ralph hopes to turn things around with the lost boys, by ordering another meeting and reminding them what is at stake and is needed to be done to get through the times. Ralph wants the hunters to be equally civilized as the rest of them are.

An H., Period 5

11/18/2012 03:32:16 pm

Although I do agree that respect is needed to be considered civilized, but respect for each other doesn't always go both way. One might had respect for another, but it could eventually diminish like it did with Jack to Ralph. Proper manner is very important because right now that is what draw the line between them being savages/warriors and civilization.

60 words.

Justin Tang

11/14/2012 01:04:25 pm

Claim: To be civilized means that you should respect the rules and who is in charge. If you don't follow your leaders, everything would go into chaos because his words would mean just as much as yours, contradicting each other.
Evidence: Ralph knows what they need to do so that they can continue living on that island. You know that when Ralph says, “ 'All this I meant to say. Now I've said it. You voted me for chief. Now you do what I say.' They quieted, slowly, and at last were seated again. Ralph dropped down and spoke in his ordinary voice" (81).
Elaboration: In our society, we look up and follow the directions given to us by our superiors. As a kid, I listen to what my parents say and do what they tell me to do, that is what makes me civilized.

Cergio A. Period 5

11/17/2012 03:48:35 am

I agree with your post because rules for people is what only keeps all the people civilized and organized without it we would go nuts. for people to follow these rules is why we have police. Likewise i also listen to my parents and they tell me what is good or bad, which keeps me civilized as well.

Aron I. Period 5

11/18/2012 10:30:17 am

I think that you made a good example about what it means to be civilized. Your claim and elaboration made me think about how important it is to follow the leader’s directions. Following the leader’s instructions or directions so that everything will be in order is what any group should do to stay civilized.

lika m, period 5

11/18/2012 12:47:55 pm

I agree with your point. Most things on earth stay in order because there is some sort of law put in place. There is usually a leader also. The quote about how Ralph was trying to keep everything in order, but the boys did not want to listen shows exactly why individuals need to abide by the laws and leader in order for things to be accomplished.

Courtney Thong

11/18/2012 01:48:20 pm

I agree with you. If my parents didn't have any rules or told me what to do and not to do,I would be a different person. Having someone there for you, telling you don't do this , don;t do that, it actually helps you in life. There demands will lead you to a successful life.

Alvin O. per. 5

11/19/2012 03:33:59 pm

Saying that rules mean everything reminds of how Ralph's reaction and response to Jacky when he said, "Who cares?" after Ralph expressed his opinion on how important the rules he assigned are. This shows his care for society and the safety of their community. Because this relates to my claim, I will also agree to yours.

Cally M., Period 5

11/14/2012 02:28:13 pm

Claim: To be civilized means that there is order established among all aspects of a society.
Evidence: The boys are not civilized. Ralph has no influence on the boys, especially Jack, who neglect to help him build shelter. Jack is most interested and busy in hunting for meat. “When the meeting was over they’d work for five minutes, then wander off or go hunting.” (51).
Elaboration: The boys’ inability to follow Ralph’s instructions and build shelters shows that they are not civilized. Their fascination with hunting reveals barbaric manner rather than a civilization. There is no sense of cooperation between the boys, but instead a hunger for power.

Aren Lim Period 5

11/15/2012 01:31:51 pm

Dear Cally,
I really like how your elaboration and reasoning for your post. Your argument really made me connect with the story, and real life situations. Your claim is well written, and your evidence and elaboration backed up your claim completely. I do think that the boy's fascination for hunting truly over-rules everything.

Eric Lo, Period 5

11/18/2012 03:37:08 am

I agree with this claim. The boys really don't know what to do outside of hunting and starting fires. They have to be able to make contact with any boat or plane that comes to for rescue. Otherwise, i am doubtful that they will be rescued because they are just focused on surviving right now.

Dinh T, Period 5

11/18/2012 02:18:04 pm

I believe that your claim is true because if there was no order in society, everyone would be out of place and nothing would get done. I like your elaboration because I also believe that Jack and the other boys are hungry for power. When they go hunting, they don’t even remember that their first priority is to get rescued.

60 words

Benjamin L., Period 5

11/18/2012 03:03:25 pm

I agree with your evidence and elaboration. The boys elected Ralph to be chief of this group and yet these kids are not listening to him. The kids are now starting to listen to Jack since he is all about hunting and survival. Also, i dont think these kids know anything about patient and time.

Tara D., Period 5

11/30/2012 01:14:34 pm

I agree with your claim but for your evidence, I think that at first the boys were civilized when they followed Ralph since they elected him as chief and he did have an influence on the boys especially the little ones. Things just get out of control and uncivilized when fear came in the story and they were all afraid because no adult was there to protect them.

Aren Lim Period 5

11/15/2012 01:27:07 pm

Claim:
To be civilized means that people are doing things in an orderly manner, and respecting others in doing so.

Evidence:
"'Look at us! How many are we? And yet we can't keep a fire going to make smoke. Don't you understand? Can't you see we ought to-ought to die before we let the fire out'
There was a self-conscious giggling among the hunters" (81)

Elaboration:
In the situation in the quote from the book, it displays an uncivilized civilization. Jack is out there making a statement that is nonetheless true, while the others listening in disrespect him, and actually start laughing at him. This shows an uncivilized civilization, because there is no respect whatsoever, and that there is no order or system to bring them together.

Justin Tang

11/19/2012 01:02:17 pm

I agree with your claim because if no one respected others, then nothing would become accomplished. They were uncivilized in the evidence you stated, and that is a good example because they are fightning among one another when they should be working as a team together and trying to get off the deserted island.

Lika M. period 5

11/15/2012 02:12:00 pm

Claim: Being civilized means living a way in which everyone must obey the rules and work together to maintain unity and organization.

Evidence: For example, Ralph is always trying to maintain order and unity of the boys by using the same civilized ways they had all learned when they lived in England; however, Jack is always going against what is right or considered civilized. “Jack’s voice sounded in a bitter mimicry. ‘Jack! Jack!’ ‘The rules!’ shouted Ralph. ‘You’re breaking the rules!’ ‘Who cares?’ ‘Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!’”(91).

Elaboration: The passage shows that Jack does not care about rules and civilized ways anymore. He believes living civilized is no use on the island. Ralph opposes and tells Jack that he was not obeying the rules. The rules are what makes the boys civilized. Without them, the unity will not be there anymore.

Raymond Tseng link

12/13/2012 05:18:32 am

I agree with you that rules are necessary in order to maintain order. Without rules to obey, humans will do dangerous actions that will destroy society. Although there are people like Jack who disobey the rules and have an urge to ruin civilization. Rules are one of the only things that separate humans and animals.

Jacelyn K., Per 6

11/15/2012 10:02:18 pm

Claim: To be civilized means to still be in the boundaries that society sets for us daily. There is still law and order in the community, and everyone serves their purpose.Everyone still holds a moral code and respects one another.

Evidence: As one of the few people that understood the importance of society, Ralph tries his hardest to keep the group of boys civilized under his rule. Unlike Jack, Ralph makes a set of rules and stand by them. He expects everyone to follow them, but instead, they stray toward savagery. "Because rules are the only thing we've got!" (91)

Elaboration: The civilized manner we do things is the only difference between barbarism and modern day society. Ralph and Piggy tried to keep the boys in check, unlike Jack. In order to stay civilized, rules must be followed and roles must be played.

James R., Period 5

11/19/2012 10:25:45 am

I agree with how you claimed that there are laws and orders to be carried out by individuals. Ralph did his job of refining the group by making sure everyone acknowledges the rules. The group will be orderly civilized if the boys actually choose to make right decisions.

Jeffery W. Period 5

11/16/2012 08:19:23 am

CLAIM: To be civilized means to be able to behave properly and obey the rules given to you.

EVIDENCE: In the novel, LORD OF THE FLIES, by William Golding, Ralph points out to Jack about what they should now and how they should act after they notice that they didn’t do anything that they said they would do, for example, they said they would finish their shelter but only two people ended up building the shelter. “Because rules are the only thing we’ve got!”(91).

ELABORATION: People need to obey the rules or else people would be in chaos. If they don’t act properly it could lead to dangerous things if they don’t obey anything.

Dawson W., Period 5

12/13/2012 05:15:07 am

I agree when their isn't any rule there can be problems with people arguing with each other and starting a riot even worst a war against each other. Rules is what makes up a civilized society and to keep peace with each other. When the people in the civilized community they have to obey and follow rules and no just let loose.

Aron I. Period 5

11/16/2012 10:27:20 am

Claim:
Being civilized means to be able to follow the rules or laws and to also be able to help maintain order.

Evidence:
For example, in the book LORD OF THE FLIES by William Golding, when Jack breaks the rules and Ralph argues with him, they say “’The rules!’ shouted Ralph. ‘You’re breaking the rules!’ ‘Who cares’ Ralph summoned his wits. ‘Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!’”(91).

Elaboration:
Jack breaks the rules and ruins the order of the group, which causes the group to fall apart and also causes chaos. This shows that civilization collapses when the order is not maintained and the rules and laws are not followed.

Wei L. Period 5

12/10/2012 01:23:38 pm

I agree with how you showed that being civilized comes from law and rules. Jack always has conflicts with either Piggy or Ralph so can’t be civilized. Being civilized means that the community must agree to follow the rules that was chosen themselves. Jack is the one who is breaking rules so he shouldn’t be civilized with his tribe.

An H., Period 5

11/16/2012 01:11:00 pm

Claim: To be civilized means that each person follows the rules that was made within the community and to respect each other.

Evidence: Currently, many of the boys are not civilized. During the assembly, Jack and Ralph were arguing with Jack saying, ”’You shut up! Who are you, anyway? Sitting there telling people what to do. You can’t hunt, you can’t sing-’…’The rules!’ shouted Ralph. ‘You’re breaking the rules!’ ‘Who cares?’’’(91).

Elaboration: In this passage, it shows that Jack doesn’t really respect people that doesn’t live up to his standards and that he doesn’t really care much about the rules since he was speaking out of turn, without the conch in his hand.

113 words.

An H., Period 5

11/16/2012 02:09:07 pm

Benjamin L., Period 5

11/16/2012 03:15:19 pm

Claim:
Civilized means or show the manners and politeness to each other. It also shows on how to control the group of people you have which is organized and easy to manage.

Evidence:
In the novel, The Lord of the Flies by William Golding, Jack is not civilized to the whole group in the island. Jack started to not care about anything such as Piggy, Ralph, and the rules made by Piggy and Ralph. For example: “Jack! Jack!” “The rules!” shouted Ralph. “You’re breaking the rules!” “Who cares?” Ralph summoned his wits. “Because the rules are the only thing we’ve got!” But Jack was shouting against him”. (pg91)

Elaborate:
Rules are very important in life. Without rules then there are several chances that this world will go crazy and never be the same. Jack shows that he now dislikes the rules Piggy and Ralph made. He decided that this is all about survival and there should be no rules in an island, just survive.

Dinh T, Period 5

11/16/2012 03:16:38 pm

Claim:

To be civilized means that people in a community can act proper with respect toward one another and they are able to follow the rules.

Evidence:

For example, in the novel LORD OF THE FLIES, by William Golding, Ralph knows what it is like to be civilized and he makes rules for everyone to follow so that they don't end up becoming savages. If everyone doesn't follow the rules, Ralph says,"We'll be like animals. We'll never be rescued"(92).

Elaboration:

Ralph wants everyone to follow the rules because if they don't, they would have to live like animals and there would also be a lot of chaos. To prevent that, Ralph establishes rules so that everyone can behave properly and be civilized.

Eric Lo, Period 5

11/17/2012 10:21:38 am

Claim: To be civilized is to act where you can be accepted by anyone and be acknowledged with respect.

Evidence: How all the boys act is not civilized. They have no idea of what to do after they have established shelter and a form of food. They should be thinking up of new ways to make sure if a boat or plane comes by they can see the SOS sign. Instead, they go hunting again for more food. “When the meeting was over they’d work for five minutes, then wander off or go hunting.” (51).

Elaboration: The boys do not know to survive properly. Someone has to take charge and tell everyone what they should do. If no one listens then find people who will because if they don't listen to the smartest one they will probably not last long.

Brandon Yip Period 5

11/18/2012 02:42:56 am

Claim: To be civilized means that you have to follow all the rules and requests the leader gives out.
Evidence: Currently in Lord of the Flies, the boys are not civilized at all. The hunters act like savages and the little boys act so immature. Jack is the most uncivilized boy out of the whole group! He neglects all the orders Ralph gave him and wouldn't help him making the shelter. For example in the book Jack says, "Who cares!" When Ralph reminded him about the rules (91).
Elaboration: Jack's ability of not following the rules shows that he is uncivilized at all including all of his hunter friends.

Tara D., Period 5

11/18/2012 02:44:22 am

Claim: Being civilized means that people have to act proper in a community to keep everything from getting to chaotic.

Evidence: For example, in THE LORD OF THE FLIES by William Golding, Piggy acts proper because he used to how things were civilized back home. While Jack starts acting like a savage because he knew there were no adults in the island so he becomes uncivilized and starts to break the rules. "' Bollocks to the rules! We're strong, we hunt! If there is a beast, we'll hunt it down'" (91) .

Elaboration: People need to act proper to order to be civilized by following the rules. Once people start to become uncivilized and become savages that is when things become more chaotic.

Dominic Garcia

11/18/2012 01:42:55 pm

Claim:To be civilized it means you know what has to be done and take action.
Evidence:At first the boys were civilized and able to help one another and feed. Until Jack hated the rules and the boys blaming each other if it is or not there fault that they did or didn't do anything.
Elaboration: It was every boys fault that caused them to be seperated and get into fights. Ralph had taken no control of the boys to help them join back together and be as if they just got together. Jack was also to blame because when he started to disobey the laws every other boy would disobey the laws. All because of jack the boys started to stop obeying the laws and help one another.

Courtney Thong

11/18/2012 01:45:50 pm

Claim: To be civilized means living by rules, being orderly.

evidence:Ralph explains that in order to have some order at meetings those who wish to speak should put up their hands "like at school. Then I'll give him the conch." He then adds, "He can hold it when he is speaking... And he won't be interupted. Except by me." Later, when Jack forms his own tribe and holds a feast on the beach he tells Ralph that, "The conch doesn't count at this end of the island." Ralph replies that the conch counts there and all over the island.

Elaboration: Being civilized is good. Whoever has the conch is allow to say whatever they want, which is good. Letting people talk all at once is going to be distracting to others.Ralph had a good idea about the conch.

Wei L. Period 5

11/18/2012 02:33:32 pm

Claim:
To be civilized means that you must cooperate with one another in the group seriously.

Evidence:
Ralph tries to get the community back to their civilized state. “We need an assembly. Not for fun. Not for laughing and falling off the log,” said Ralph(79).

Elaboration:
Jack, for instance, breaks the civilized group that they had when they first met. They made rules, but Jack shatters them by leading in his own way. Ralph and Jack fail to cooperate. Ralph tries to reunite the group by having assemblies and reminding people about the rules. This is how a civilized person would act.

James Zhijie R., Period 5

11/19/2012 10:12:27 am

Claim: To be civilized means to have a highly developed society and culture.

Evidence: In the novel, Lord of the Files by William Golding, Ralph calls for a meeting late in the evening to discuss the various issues with the group of boys. At the meeting, Ralph delivers a speech about the boys’ failure for upholding the group’s rules. They have not done anything required of them: they refused to work at building shelters, they did not gather drinking water, they neglected the signal fire, and they did not use the designated toilet area. To fix this, Ralph made an outstanding effort to solve these problems and to civilize the group. “‘And another thing. We nearly set the whole island on fire. And we waste time, rolling rocks, and making little cooking fires. Now I say this and make it a rule, because I’m chief: We don’t have a fire anywhere but on the mountain. Ever.’” (81).

Elaboration: One of the ways of being civilized is to have rules. Ralph gave out his best effort to make ethical rules to refine the group.

Cergio A. Period 5

11/20/2012 10:57:43 am

Claim: To be civilized means, to not against the leader that has been chosen and trying to go against the leader and turning people to your side so just that you can be the leader.

Textual evidence: A part that symblozies this is when Ralph argues against Jack for letting go of the fire. "You let out the fire jack",Ralph says. "We'll we got meat that"s what matters" Jack says. "Jack a plane passed by we could have been saved!", Ralph says.(90)

elaboration: Jack by then is not trusted by Ralph, and their relationship breaks apart with jack suddenly turning to some savage. Along with others small children, and Jack's choir turn like him making his own group. Yet their losing their minds and aren't bothering to get saved from what it shows. But Ralph, Piggy, and other kids want to go home very bad.

Alex D.

12/2/2012 12:27:04 pm

Claim:
To be civilized means to follow and carry out the rules and laws and obey whoever is in command. If you don't follow your leaders, everything would be lawlessness and chaos, it would be an anarchy because the laws and justness would mean just as much as yours, contradicting one another.
Evidence:
Ralph and Piggy know what needs to be done so that they can continue living on the island. For example, when Ralph says, “ 'All this I meant to say. Now I've said it. You voted me for chief. Now you do what I say.' They quieted, slowly, and at last were seated again. Ralph dropped down and spoke in his ordinary voice."
Elaboration:
In todays society, we listen and carry out the rules and laws given to us by our superiors. As a teenager, I will listen to what my parents say and do what they tell me to do, that is what makes me civilized.

Robert Carrasco Per 5

12/6/2012 09:32:03 am

Claim: Being civilized is following all the rules and by not following the rules there would be chaos. Like what Jack did to Ralph which who was the leader of everyone.

Evidence: Jack for example wasn't civilized to Ralph. Since he became the leader and Jack didn't get picked to be leader. Jack decided to not listen and he ended up having his own group. Then chaos started happening. (textual evidence) Bollocks to the rules! We're strong, we hunt! If there is a beast, we'll hunt it down'" (91) .

Elaboration: Everyone needs to civilized. If everyone is civilized then no chaos will happen. If you don't listen you become a savage.

Robert Carrasco Per 5

12/6/2012 09:37:43 am

I agree with you because if Jack would have had listened then there would be no chaos. But Jack didn't listen and soon became a savage.

Raymond Tseng link

12/13/2012 05:06:30 am

Claim: To be civilized is to be mature and thoughtful about making decisions. Being civilized also means to be aware of the people around you. Also, having a desire for order and peace is being civilized.
Evidence: In Lord of the Flies, Ralph knows that being rescued in the main priority, so he tries to maintain the fire. Piggy is also civilized because he cares about the well being of his fellow survivors. After the boys had lit the fire for the first time, the littun with the mulberry birthmark disappeared into the forest. Piggy was the only one to notice that and question the others on his whereabouts.
Elaboration: In todays world, humans are able to live peacefully and enjoy life because of people like Ralph and Piggy who have a desire for order and peace for other humans. If people were not civilized, then our world would be chaotic.

Dawson W., Period 5

12/13/2012 05:12:35 am

Claim: To be civilized is to be who you are and not to fall into a state where you lose everything you ever have.

Evidence; In the novel, LORD OF THE FLIES, by william golding, when jack says,"Bollocks to the rules!"(91). He doesn't want to follow the rules he wants to be his own man.

Elaboration: What is showing here is that the to be civilized, you have to follow rules. Jack here doesn't want to follow the rules and he starting to lose his inner life, he's starting to turn into being one with nature. He thinks that when there;s no rule that everything would be fine but to be civilized you need rules.

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